Today, we’re really grateful to share a conversation with historian John Turner about the brand new biography he’s just published: Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet.John is a professor of Religious Studies and History at George Mason University. While not a member of the the Latter-day Saint faith, he has had a particular fascination with the early history of Mormonism, and wrote an earlier biography of Brigham Young. Some of the interpretations and conclusions John draws in his book may differ from our own, but we found this new biography on Joseph to be meticulously researched and engagingly written.In this book, John doesn’t aim to settle all debates between Joseph Smith’s supporters and his detractors, but with more primary sources available than ever before, he hoped to provide a fuller picture of a figure who continues to shape who we are today. John says that while the question of “Whether God actually spoke to [Joseph] Smith is a matter of faith… there is no question about his prophetic self-conception.”We assume most listeners are familiar with the general contours of Joseph’s life, so in this conversation we talked with John about some topics we felt needed more exploration: his family’s early hardships and how they might have shaped his resilience as a spiritual leader; what the historical record tells us about the gold plates and Joseph’s visions; and whether Joseph truly instigated and lived plural marriage.What struck us most was John’s portrayal of Joseph’s constant evolution—his willingness to revise, to explore, and to ask better questions. It made us wonder if Joseph’s boldness and openness to change could serve as inspiration to us in today’s church.We know that talking openly about Joseph—his humanity, his complexity, even his mistakes—can be challenging. But we hope this episode helps create more space for recognizing the humanity of our leaders, both past and present.